Word choice in fan fiction

[tenaya]

First off, let me say I do cuss. I have to remember not to cuss when at the job and something alarming happens. My father had been a sailor in WW2 and had an absolutely filthy mouth. I am not prude when it comes to foul language. I just think it is more effective to use it as spice instead of the main course.

Having said that, I have to admit I frequently find myself stopped dead in a story, staring at the all too frequent bad language coming out of the mouths of my favorite characters. Since when does Daniel speak like that? I'll give you he does say damn, bastard and even hell when under duress, but not under mundane and casual circumstances.

I'm still reading a mess of Harry Potter fiction I dl'd a few months ago. It's not uncommon for these kids to be using all manner of bad language while simply discussing how to spend the reminder of the day. This usually has me staring at the screen, muttering "wtf?"

Poor word choice ruins the characterization. Why would an author sabatoge themselves with such an easily avoided mistake? Does using bad language equate being 'cool?' Is it more desirable to be cool than to create a better story? Is the constant reminder that they are included in the community more important than writing a story, that if done really well, will give you bonus points in said community? Does each writer's priority sort them into one of two groups--fans who write or writers who are fans?

In a related subject, and one in which I'll probably be stomping on some toes of the 'cool kids,' why do otherwise skilled writers insist on using fannish vocabulary in their fannish stories? I know specialized vocabulary defines a community, and the fannish community is particularly eager to embrace new words, partly, I suspect to differentiate the small cliques of fans who feel they are cooler than the rest of the pack. I have to say when I come across online lingo coming out of the mouths of Teal'c or Jack (in a non-online situation) or in the narrative, I am stopped cold in the story. The word choice is obviously wrong, and the only conclusion I can come up with, is that the writer is wanting to communicate their inclusion into the 'cool kids' club, and the temptation to do the secret handshake in public is irresistable. My sad little opinion is that they should rethink the urge.

The bottom line? Skilled writers are making the same mistake as those seemingly highschoolers are making. Go figure.

Not quite the effect they were shooting for, is it?

Comments

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

I think there's a decision to be made, here. Due to each show's audience, there's never going to be strong language in an episode to the extent that the characters might use if they were "real". So when I see a story that's rated R or higher, that contains strong themes and such, being hit by the odd f*ck isn't a surprise. I think it's the limitations of the show that means the characters don't use those words. Although, out of all of the SG folks, I think Jack might use stronger words and Sam might occasionally - it would give shock value in her case. Daniel? Probably swears in ancient languages rather than modern ones.

But in stories that are on the same level as the eps themselves, I wouldn't expect strong language, and it does put me out of the story. Also, hearing a character use a word that's wrong for their nationality is too weird - hearing "wanker" come out of Jack's mouth, for example.

I'm not sure if it reflects on the skill level of a writer, or if it's just something that slips through in a moment of weakness. Not a clue about the cool kids club, either *g* But in HP or other such universe, I absolutely do not expect to hear them swearing. Their universe includes a lot of incredibly nasty stuff, but bad language doesn't appear to be part of it. I read Sentinel and Magnificent Seven, and I would expect bad language among the police/criminals of TS (again, if the story itself is at that level), but I have no idea how realistic it is to have modern swearing in the Old West. I don't know if what I consider modern is actually modern, though...

Hmm, not sure that actually added anything to the discussion.

[sg1scribe.livejournal.com]

I don't have a particular hang-up about swearing, but I recently had a conversation along these lines with my eldest son. I ticked him off for swearing without good reason. He retaliated by saying that I use the f-word in fiction. I pointed out that the character I was writing was a pregnant teenager who had survived living on the streets for some time and had, in the past, hung out with drug addicts and low lives. It was therefore in character for the f-word to flow off her tongue fairly readily, but even with her, I only used it when she was under pressure. I also pointed out that if you use the f-word frequently it doesn't leave you a whole lot of scope when you need a really, really good swear. Much better to save certain words up for when you really want to let rip. He seems to gave got the message.

[juliefortune.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you.

Part of the skill of doing fanfic is internalizing the character voice, and not "revising" it to your own personal specifications. If it doesn't sound like Jack, it ain't Jack. And if Jack curses, he does it explosively, and more than likely internally and in one-word epithets, at least in my opinion. Daniel? Only in the extremest circumstances.

Same for HP. Okay, I can see Sirius cursing during the Marauders era -- absolutely. He's a rebel. Remus, far less. James I'm iffy on. But Harry, Hermione, and Ron? No, I don't think so.

Adult Remus to me is still very reserved, not at all prone to cursing. Sirius can curse up a blue streak, I'm fine with it. It all depends entirely on the characters. (I personally can't see Snape cursing at all, except in very inventive Shakespearian insults. LOL!)

I can pretty much tell from a fairly short snippet whether or not writers have internalized the characters or not, and like you, it really tosses me right out if they haven't.

In-jokes are great. In-jokes that serve to nakedly flash readers are NOT. The story and characters should, in my opinion, always be paramount, or else why are you writing fanfic? Go write something else.

That's just me. And I guess I'm in a feisty mood. ;)

-- J.

[kittyfisher.livejournal.com]

oh, just YES! I recently read something where Snape swore foully and often. Now, would he? NO! he has superb voacbulary and boy he is not afraid to use it! Harry and the kids I can imagine swearing under duress, especially in the sixth form, or post-Voldemort. But otherwise? no. And why have them swearing anyway? It's different in universes where the shows bowdlerise the characters' language, like anything the modern world for instance.

And UK/USA language inappropriateness , that gets me too. Because it is not that hard these days to find a beta in the country in which the story is set. I get driven MAD by Snape/Harry stories that talk about High School, Proms, semesters, campus, biscuits for breakfast or (and now I can;t think of the right word, but) whatever the USA calls time-tables!

Rant over...

BTW - love the photos of zoo!! **Hugs**

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a thoughtful young man. Say...this isn't the one you were going to sell on ebay, was it??

I suppose it could be my value judgement that a constant stream of foul language equates poor manners and a shortage of education. Yet I do know people that are way smarter than me and have a stream of initials after their names that say f-this and f-that...but not that many. The majority of the results of higher education can eviserate with a few precise words.

I guess for me it is when my emotions are in control--or out of control-- that I'm most likely to cuss. I guess I'm projecting those values onto the characters.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I feel that Snape would have disdain for anyone that was unable to express even the most mundane thought without cursing. I've skimmed more than one story that has him swearing. I just don't buy it. They are losing an important aspect of Snape.

The Brit/Yank language thing is a continuing curse. In Stargate, I'll barely pause over the infrequent use of torch or lift, but get totally stalled if the characters use a lot of Britishisms. In the HP universe, I get thrown out even faster to see American terms. HP is so intrinsically British that I would consider Americanisms a greater foul. There must be a FAQ to explain the British school system? I wouldn't mind reading it myself.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

BTW, good rant. And the zoo...is that those raccoon photos I've put up?

Hugs to you and L!

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

Feisty is good. I like feisty.

Jack is interesting because on the show, he/RDA slips in a lot of stuff. "Boned again." "That's what you get for dickin' around." Jack is a Colonel, now General, and, in my mind, an officer and a gentleman. I think he would curse as you've described, "...explosively, and more than likely internally and in one-word epithets." There's a restrained quality about him when things get rough, and to see him hold back an outburst is more "Jack" to me than having the character cuss a blue streak, which I'm sure he could if he wanted to. One could argue that TV standards prevent Jack from saying 'F-ed again' instead of 'Boned again' but I'm more of the opinion that he might have kept it cleaner since people around him included mixed company (both aliens and women, in this case. )

Daniel is very controlled and it takes a lot of make him lose it. His back story has him attending UCLA at 16; I can't help but see him as studious and quiet. I just don't see him cursing unless he's really lost it. If an author has him cussing because because his car won't start, they've lost me.

I agree about the HP stuff. I think that Sirius' rogue nature is part of what attracts Harry to him; Sirius is a rule breaker and Harry tends to be pushed into breaking a lot of rules just to survive.

Characterization is THE most important item for me in fanfic. I'll put up with plot holes if the characters are true (kind of like in Avatar.)

I guess the basic question is why certain people are writing fanfic? If they are pounding out tons of stories that have little relation to the characters we see on the tv, what is their motivation? Are they working through the archtypes that populate their lives? Are they producing stories merely to get feedback and status within this relatively small community? Do they even care if a reader here or there complains that their characterizations are lacking? Do they see their own stories as so disposible that "getting it right" matters not to them?

And yet...some of these flawed stories have many eager readers, so I'm told. Why is that?

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

I'm the type of reader that loves a good, gritty story; if it's rated R or above, I'm even more eager. To see the characters stressed to the point where they might curse is ambrosia to me...which makes me wonder if having the characters curse too quickly is a lazy way to indicate the character is stressed? That way the writer doesn't have to do the work of laying down a believeble scenario as to why the character is in that state?

But I digress. I think Jack can cuss quite well, but as I set up scenarios in my head, I find it hard to imagine him giving a NYC cabbie a run for their money. I suppose this PG show has defined how I see Jack. I mean, we've seen him go through some horrendous things and we've seen his reactions. I'm not sure that given the freedom of a R-rated film (for violence and action, I'm sure) that RDA would indulge in more than a few explosive words under dire circumstances.

Hmm...Jack saying 'wanker.' Nooooo, I don't think he would. It made me giggle to try and get him to say it in my head though.

I believe what would constitute bad language in the Old West would be different than what we use today. For myself, I tend to pepper a few authetic items in a story, but not go further as it might prove distracting to the modern reader.

Mag 7 proved difficult for me to watch even though I'm quite fond of a couple of the actors because there were too many modernism in the show, from PC attitudes to language to characters/stereotypes. I keep thinking I just haven't see the right episode yet.

Cop shows. Yep, bad language would abound.

Anyway, thanks for playing! It did make me ponder if cursing as a literary shortcut to emotional angst.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, there's still a limit to what language would be used even in extreme circumstances. Jack isn't going to turn into a Millwall fan, with every other word the f-word. But to show the stress, I think swearing for the SG characters is a demonstration of a loss of control, of the feeling that the situation is running away with them and letting out the odd expletive is like using a pressure-release valve.

I agree, there certainly wouldn't be huge amounts of it.

On the Mag7 realism, I really have no idea about that era, so things don't look odd to me. And I watch mostly for the prettiness abounding rather than the plots. And if it had stayed on the air, I would have expected more tying up, at the very least ;-)

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

"And yet...some of these flawed stories have many eager readers, so I'm told. Why is that?"

Oh, don't get me started on that. It's a complete mystery to me, frankly, and always will be. But then, looking at the number of people who read and love Harry Potter books (me included), massive flaws included, perhaps it's the story and characters that allow a reader to ignore the less than perfect elements of the writing?

With fic, I'm not one who subscribes to the "well it's just a fic, it doesn't need to be spell-checked / grammar-checked / betaed" school of writing. Please don't inflict those stories on the world at large. Please.

[innocent-lex.livejournal.com]

Oddly, I get stopped by use of Britishisms/Australianisms in an SG fic, because it's meant to be set in the US. This is odd because I'm a Brit and those words should be natural to me, but I do get pushed out by use of "car park" and "boot" in an SG / TS / Mag7 fic.

As for the schooling system, what do you need to know? With HP, it's not exactly equivalent to the current year numbering, but otherwise it's straightforward boarding school fare. Hogwarts is a senior school, which means there are 7 years to go through. The last two years are the lower sixth and upper sixth. Prefects are those who make sure other kids behave themselves. Kids try to get away with as much as possible, playing tricks on other kids and sneaking about under the noses of the teachers. Hogwarts doesn't seem to have "prep" time i.e. time after school every day when you do your homework. They do have the equivalent of O-levels and A-levels, which are the exams at 16 and 18 respectively, and those are the exams that employers are interested in.

Er, anything else?

[juliefortune.livejournal.com]

Characterization is THE most important item for me in fanfic.

Amem! Hallelujah! :)

I guess the basic question is why certain people are writing fanfic?

You know, I'm not really sure that some of them "get it." They've internalized the characters, but then they've rewritten them, so the characters in their head bear little relation to the originals ... and frankly, I think a lot of them just don't care. It's sort of creativity on crutches (and yes, I know that's harsh) ... they're in this strange middle territory of writing something that's not an original character, not canon, and that's where they're comfortable, because they're not held to rules, and yet they don't have the risks of actually creating something totally new.

Having said that, there are some people who are capable of writing non-canon characters who utterly captivate me ... but they have to be DAMN good at it, and it has to still have some kind of internal consistency to the tropes. (Oh my God, I'm using writer-words.)

Take, for instance, circe_tigana's brilliant blending of David Thewlis's character from Naked, who is a fast-talking, wired, unpredictable, whimsical, charming, scary, sadistic, vulnerable man, and using that in terms of what happens to Remus during the time just prior to his transformations. I mean, that's brilliant. It's an allegory to addiction, it's showing us the violence we know lurks at the heart of the werewolf, it's showing us the war that rages inside of him. And, of course, Circe's effin' brilliant as a writer, so there's that, too.

Were a lesser talent to attempt it, I can't imagine it would work. But with her skills, it's utterly compelling and believable.

Which more or less muddies the waters, but I think my point is that most writers don't bend canon like that deliberately, they do it blindly, and it shows.

Do they even care if a reader here or there complains that their characterizations are lacking? Do they see their own stories as so disposible that "getting it right" matters not to them?

I think that some are just really learning how to write. I mean, it ain't easy, internalizing characters in addition to mastering the subtleties of words and pacing and plotting and all that other stuff we have to do. And fanfic can be a fine, nurturing place to learn those skills, because people are in general supportive of your efforts.

But I also think it can be a dangerous, honey-sticky kind of trap, because it does forgive your flaws so readily. And writers have egos. Good writers, I think, learn how to distrust their egos, because the bastards lie, but a lot of fanfic writers sort of buy into their own press after a while, and that can be very dangerous. (I'm not exempting the pros -- the pros have the same exact issues.) I think the good ones will listen to critique and learn and grow. The ones that have reached the limits of where they want to be ... well, they'll stay there.

And there are a good many for whom getting it right matters not at all. They'll even tell you that they completely disregarded the rules, right up front. Generally, of course, that just means that they found the rules inconvenient and didn't want to bother with working that hard (or at least I've found it to be so).

I know. I'm harsh. :sigh: But I do aggressively support good writing where I find it.

And yet...some of these flawed stories have many eager readers, so I'm told. Why is that?

As many undiscerning writers as there are, there have to just as many undiscerning readers. Plus, I've found there are an awful lot of fanfic writers who just don't read original fiction. So they truly haven't been exposed to non-media storytelling -- and as a result, their "gold standard" is considerably lower than mine. But then I read constantly, pro and fan, and I grade everything objectively. I don't have a different "fan" scale than I do a "pro" scale -- writing is writing. I expect it to be good.

Maybe we're just too demanding. But I hope not.

-- J.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

Yes, the show has some very pretty scenery. Maybe I shall give it another try.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

It's always about the characters for me. I'm still struggling to watch Enterprise and Andomeda specifically because of one minor character on each show. I've read some very imaginative stories that lacked interesting characters and I felt it was shiny while it lasted, but did not engage me at all emotionally.

To pick an oft mentioned example, Daniel depicted with the needs and emotional maturity of a small child. I think people that like to read that situation probably are drawn to the same set up in other fandoms. It's an emotional kink for them.

And I've kind of wander from my rant of why a skilled writer would suddenly have the characters cuss like sailors. And I have to go to work. Damn.

[alicambs.livejournal.com]

Don't get me started on the Americanisation of HP! I wrote an essay and posted it to hp_essays and woah, did I get some flack. Apparently, to some, the HP universe could have been written anywhere and the Britishness is neither here nor there and a red herring, plus, to others, it was far more convenient if Harry et all used Americanisms as it made the reading and the writing easier. Oh yes? So I can write the SGC as if it was part of the RAF and not the USAF because it's more convenient for me. I can hear the screaming already. *g* Sorry, but this is a biggie for me, and it's not a if there weren't some great Brit/American resources either.

Right, back to the topic in hand, swearing. My dad always said that regular use of the vernacular demonstrated an inadequate grasp of the English language. I smiled sweetly and swore under my breath when the hammer slipped! I think Daniel would tend to agree with him, although being able to swear in an foreign language must be extremely useful at times. I now tell my own kids off for swearing, and can't bear to hear or read excessive bad language in fiction. So why do I love Billy Connelly so much I wonder. *g*