SG1: thoughts on Vala and ship

[tenaya]

I'm downloading The Shroud as I write. So are a lot of other people. What usually takes an hour is now somewhere between 7 and 24 hours for a 350m file. :::sigh:::

Anyway, I've been spoiling myself left and right on the different forums and it's made me think about my preferences.

I don't like Sam and Jack for a couple of reasons. First, the show and the characters weren't set up to support it. In my opinion, Sam was set up to be smart and a competent and dignified USAF officer and not arm candy for the lead actor. The "romance" didn't start up until S4 when the writers changed. Second, I think it cheapens the character and ethics of both characters. I have no problem with them noticing that they are each very attractive people, but for Jack to pursue a relationship, imho, makes him despicable. I don't see Jack as the type of man who would put a subordinate in an impossible situation. Sam's career would be ruined. Third, it would and has destroyed Sam as a viable character. Her only contribution to the show is that she moons after her superior officer and she's a joke. Yeah, there are a few times of late where I see glimpses of the old Sam but for the most part--and here is point Four--I just cringe when she's on the screen and there's any possible opportunity to push the ship. Yeah, that's my problem; I feel like I'm one of Pavlov's dogs as a result. It's a knee jerk reaction now and I'm actually surprised and relieved when we get through an ep without some sort of embarrassment for Sam. That REALLY damages my enjoyment of the show.

So, what about Daniel/Vala? I think it's kinda cute but I don't, as a rule, look for the D/V ship fic. Am I a hypocrite? I don't believe so because: First off, the Daniel/Vala relationship was constructed to have a sexual attraction between them. Even before she had taken off her Super Soldier mask/helmet and we'd met Vala, she had made a pass at Daniel. Will they end up together? I'm not sure, but since they were attracted to each other from page one, it feels acceptable to me if they will. Same thing with Sam and all her paramours, or Jack and Sarah; those characters were written to be in a relationship with each other. Second, there is the thing that Daniel and Vala are on the same team and doesn't that make their romance inappropriate? Well, until they both agree they are in luv with each other, it's just UST. Besides, Daniel works hard at keeping her at bay and has taken a more mentoring type role. He's trying to help her and that only makes his character more admirable. And if the time came when they started sleeping together, I actually would expect one of them to leave the team. Third, the reality is that Vala makes a pass at everything male and some females. The reality is that Daniel resists the relationship both emotionally and physically. He protests quite vigorously--and I find that very cute. I like the predatory moments as Vala pursues Daniel (and she has had to take a number when it comes to pursuing Daniel.) The writers have constructed these characters to dance around their attraction to each other and the audience is meant to be entertained by this dance.

Now, the ship I'd personally would like to have seen would either have been Jack/Daniel or Daniel/Teal'c...yet I don't expect to see it on screen at all. And I freely admit that if Jack and Daniel were during the horizontal bop, realistically they couldn't be on the same team. But I do love the forbidden luv thing and therefore have gigs of J/D fic.. *g*

So, that's why I cringe at one ship on the show and laugh with enjoyment at another pairing and read tons of stories about the third.

Oh joy, an hour later and the Shroud is now 33% downloaded (was at 22% an hour ago.) Yeah, it will be morning before that finishes.

Comments

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

I'm in near-perfect agreement with you on this issue. But there was one quirk of phrasing I found interesting:

for Jack to pursue a relationship, imho, makes him despicable. I don't see Jack as the type of man who would put a subordinate in an impossible situation.

It's interesting that you say this and not mention that it's equally inappropriate for Sam to pursue Jack. This is the crux of my problem with S/J- Sam is supposed to be a mature adult. Even if she did find her CO attractive, she has *no* business 'mooning' while she's a member of the team. She either needs to deal with her inappropriate feelings or request a transfer. The same thing applies to Jack, of course, but except for a few awkward flirting episodes in the aforementioned unfortunate S4, the mooning has pretty much been all on Sam's side. (Giving me a severe desire to kick TPTB smartly in the nuts, but that doesn't change the canon!)

[obelix]

Agreed with all your points.

The UST between Daniel and Vala really isn't the same as the ship of doom between Sam and Jack. Yes Vala is interested and pursuing Daniel but it's not done exclusive to everything else in the show, it's a cute little side thing that you can see or not. With J&S it was thrown in at inopportune moments and was pushed to the exclusion of everything else including plot. Also Vala is not an officer in armed forces whereas Sam was and Jack was her commanding officer, Daniel is not Vala's commanding officer, Mitchell is.

I still prefer Jack and Daniel but it's never going to happen and Vala and Daniel is fun.

[geminia905.livejournal.com]

Ditto to pretty much everything, plus the fact there is no chemistry at all when it comes to S/J, so it all comes across forced and they feel they have to beat any viewer who is not predisposed to want lead male character A to be in love with female character B over the head with it in order to get their supposedly subtle point across. "See? See? They're in lurve!! See? Look, dammit! Doe Eyes of Doom = true love!"

I'd never approve of the relationship, but if they didn't have to resort to overt ploys like the Moon Eyes of Death in order to play up the ship, it would at least be less annoying.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

Yep, I totally agree. As I was falling asleep I thought, "did I even mention how inappropriate Sam's crush/fixation was on Jack?" Yes, Sam's mooning is completely unprofessional. It's embarassing, and has obviously made Jack uncomfortable. When she showed up at Jack's while he was grilling steaks with his girlfriend is stalking behavior in my mind. I think her dating of Pete was done just to make Jack jealous. Her behavior is very immature and, for me, destroyed her as an interesting and viable character. I cringe when I see her choices. I think I missed going off on Sam because I prefer not to think about her at all.

Do you think the fact that the mooning has only been one sided was done by the PTB to ridicule Sam, or do they somehow view that as being hot or something equally teenageish on their part?

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

Well, I think everyone can see she's pursuing Daniel, but at least it's up to the viewer as to whether we want her to catch him or not. *g* With S/J, it was thrust front and center and how many eps was it one of the A or B plots? It was overwhelming and it certainly bred comtempt on my part.

Very true that there isn't the chain of command thing between Daniel and Vala. Personally, I can't imagine anyone in command of Vala and I enjoy that. She would not have worked as an addition to SG1 in the first 3 seasons because she's so over the top and the first three seasons were more realistic, and less comedy and action based. SG1 has changed and I've accepted that. I do like Vala and I root for her to finally catch Daniel one day. Yep, she's more than an equal to Daniel.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

Oh, god yes! The chemistry. I've never seen anything but awkwardness between Jack and Sam. Plus, they have NOTHING in common. Jack is even rude to her on occasion. Imho, I think Jack/Sam has more to do with powerplays in the writer's room than to anything else.

And those damn Moon Eyes of Death made Tapping a one note performer. Well, she did have the gulp, too, I guess.

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

Gah! Word Word Word on the S/J! Ack. (I really love the interaction between Sam and Cam. That's what a real relationship should be like -- someone you can be yourself with, not tied up in knots over. Not while they're on the same team, though...)

I love the interaction between Daniel and Vala, but I don't see them in a relationship, at least not at this point. Daniel is a very guarded, private person. And Vala did threaten him and behave completely immorally by his standards their first few interactions -- stealing the Prometheus, then essentially kidnapping him (away from his highest dream, Atlantis) with the goa'uld bracelet.

Even in her reformed self, Vala is a battering ram trying to knock down his (and everyone else's) walls. For so long, she hasn't been a part of a community. She was a host, and then had to make it alone, on her wits and whatever else she could use for power. Seduction was one of the tools she wielded. She has grown to trust and care for SG-1, and they for her, but she still has a lot to learn about where the lines of appropriate behavior are drawn, and what mature relationships are like. Ironically, if she dialled the sexual offers back, she'd be far more likely to land Daniel. It could happen...

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

I think her dating of Pete was done just to make Jack jealous.

See, I want Sam to be a character I like and respect. So when I have thoughts like this, I stick my fingers in my ears and hum loudly. My take- she wants to love Pete, get married, have a 'normal' life. But it turns out to be a combination of her trying too hard, and also not being able to relate to someone who can't share her -rather expanded- worldview.

Do you think the fact that the mooning has only been one sided was done by the PTB to ridicule Sam, or do they somehow view that as being hot or something equally teenageish on their part?

I think there are several things going on here. I don't think they set out to ridicule Sam, but they seem to be stuck on the -generally pervasive- media idea that 'love' is the same thing as romance and infatuation. This leads them to portray romantic interest in ways more appropos to fifteen-year-olds than adults. Also in mainstream Western culture intimacy = sex. Men and women aren't supposed to be friends or allowed to care about each other without it being about plumbing.

Then they can't do an actual romance because of the USAF association (and they *want* to stay in the good side of the Air Force- I believe they've gotten significant support including things like aircraft footage and filming at the Air Force Academy). So they came up with this lame attempt to have their cake and eat it too, instead of just changing the circumstances to let them do the story. And frankly, I don't think they have an *actual* story- they just think Stargate doesn't have enough sex. (But all shows have to have sex, viewers *want* that. Argh.) So they're trying to force it in there with the only female regular they have.

And finally- *all* the writers are men, and while that isn't an absolute bar to writing good female characters, it certainly isn't these guys' strength. I thought the strongest writing for Sam was mostly in her relationship with her father- and note that dynamic was established in S2, before the current writers signed on.

Honestly, I was talking with some friends in RL about this, and the only person we could think of who has done relationships well in SF is Joss Whedon. He managed several series relationships for regular characters in BtVS, and they resolved, the characters went on and the series didn't suck afterward. (Okay, *and* the characters were supposed to be teenagers, so the angsty bits read as more natural!) He had two characters who were married in Firefly- and it was fine. Not a big romance plot, it was done fairly realistically. It's very hard to think of other genre (or non-genre for that matter) examples.

betacandy has written about this extensively on her women-in-media site if you're looking for some in-depth discussion.

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

So, what about Daniel/Vala?

I'm not sure how much of this is deliberate. But I think the dynamic with Daniel and Vala has been kind of interesting. Vala starts off seeing Daniel as cute but basically a mark. Throwing herself at him is an attempt to manipulate him. But it doesn't work and that makes her genuinely interested. Also challenged- the bracelet thing has to have been at least partially competitive on her part. She lost to him at her own game, and she wants another chance to beat him. And as she gets to know him, she realizes that he's genuinely- well- nice. And still cute.

Daniel on the other hand, sees her first as an adversary, but then as a cause. He doesn't love her, he wants to save her. In some ways possibly because he couldn't save Sha're or a lot of other people. But also because he sees that she isn't completely amoral. He wants to give her a second chance. Enough to argue her case to Landry, despite the fact he has to be aware there's a real chance she's going to disappoint him.

Will Daniel ever see her as more than that? Hard to say (and open to whatever fannish interpretation would like to see :). But I find it touching and rather astonishingly subtle for this group of writers (and I wonder if the actors are putting their own spin on some of this). Because isn't it a nice reflection of the beginning of it all? When Daniel helped give Jack another chance, and the Abydonians gave him one?

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. She's too overwhelming for him, too unpredictable. He does like her when she isn't manipulating him, but yeah, she has a chance at him if she'd cool it. The trouble is her aggression is now a natural part of her defenses so she'd really have to want him bad to change herself so completely.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

On PU, it never occured to her that he would prevail. I think she did think that the treasure hunt was Round Two and the bracelets were to ensure her win. I wonder when the moment was where she became more intrigued to simply stay near him because she liked him rather than playing him to get what she wanted? I'll have to rewatch....

Once the bracelet came off and some time had passed, he really lightened up towards her. She really had him off-balance and flustered at the start of S9. Good point about him wanting to save her since he wasn't able to save Sha're. I thought that at the time and was surprised they didn't mention it. If Sha're had been free, she might have been just has screwed up as Vala was.

I think the actors have a bit of ownership on their characters and how they interact, bringing nuances that the writers haven't put in.

I look forward to how they'll leave the relationship when the show ends. The D/V writers have a lot to work with already so at least they're happy.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

I thought Pete was a good match for her, especially after he was let on in the secret. And anyone, except McKay, would not be able to follow her conversation if she wanted to chat about what happened at work that day, so actually, Pete was deficient there. It was really reprehensible what she did to him and I lost all respect for her.

The writers were annoying in how they wrote Sam for years, but once Tapping pressed for Sam to get a boyfriend, things got out of hand very fast. They tried to write a romance within the borders set by the USAF, and got a constipated look from Jack and emotional longing from Sam and boy was that all really embarrassing. The writers are very immature when it comes to male and female relationships. I think it has to do with working in the office setting; the writers are all male and I bet their secretaries are mainly females. They are used to women being powerless and acting that way. It's a shame they can't write men and women as friends though the Daniel and Sam are friends. Do you sense any antagonism from Sam towards Daniel in the last few years? I do but maybe I'm projecting. *g*

Joss Whedon definitely did relationships very, very well (except the gay relationships usually ended up being doomed.) Off hand, the only other show that does well is Ugly Betty. But there is only one married couple there and that marriage isn't healthy at all. But there is a great mix of males and females and lots of different types of relationships. It's actually a very fun show.

Thanks for the headsup on the women-in-media site. I'll have to go have a look see.