Thoughts on the beta beast

[tenaya]

There's a dust up in lj land and I feel like sharing a few observations as I've worked both sides of the fence on occasion.

Beta-ing is a lot of work and I very much appreciate someone taking the time to help me look better.

Ninety percent of the betas who have worked with me have been very helpful and I tend to take their input and am grateful for it. And I learn from them.

I have asked for volunteers to beta my stories and a couple of times been completely flummoxed by their input. There was one BNF that put in a truck load of thats into a story I wrote. I'd heard once that if a sentence can be understood without a word, that that word has no punch to it, one should probably delete the word. I felt it was a stylistic choice but hey, a BNF was advising me so I went with it. Once it was published, I saw the BNF ask others about their opinions on 'that' in a forum and admitted she didn't have a clue about what was right. :::sigh::: I was left with the feeling that she was pretty damn full of herself and she didn't think twice about mucking about with my story.

There was another beta I received and it was so out there, I didn't know what to do about it. She was rewriting my story. She had put a lot of time into my story but I couldn't take any of the advice. At that point I realized that on occasion, particular betas and writers are oil and water. I felt really bad. I'd ask for help, she had helped, but it was not usable. It was very awkward. I thanked her and tried to be honest about why I wasn't using her input. I don't think I heard from her again.

I'm not the best beta because I tend to say, "well, if I was the writer, I would have made this choice." That's me rewriting, not beta-ing. I try to be upfront with a writer if I'm responding to a open request about what she can expect from me (and I HOPE TO GOD that if she doesn't want that type of input, please tell me now before I put my time into the project.)

I have had two writers I've worked for that I felt very frustrated by. One time, a writer had Joe from Highlander pick up an unconscious Duncan and carry him down a couple of flights of stairs of a burning building. While it was dramatic and I like Joe, the actor is a double amputee. I don't recall that that it was ever mentioned how severe Joe's disability was in the series, but at the very least, the character is never seen without a cane and he leans heavily on it. I pointed this out (very nicely) and she blew me off. Another writer had a story that was so awful, I had no idea where to begin. I did a lot of work and tried to go for the object stuff (totally ignoring the poor characterization and dialogue.) This time I was huffily blown off. I really regret the time and effort I took on that story and vowed if I ever was faced with such a mismatch again, I was simply going to bow out, with a lie if I had to.

Ninety percent of everything is crap. But the strange thing is when it comes to fanfic, one person's crap is another person's treasure.

And I know full well that there are people out there than think my work is in that ninety percent. :::shrugs::: But that's okay. I know I have a niche and I'm good with that.

As for the perpetual debate of honesty vs everyone needs to be nice to each other...I have to side on the honesty side. If I don't like what someone is saying--particularly in their own lj--I just move along.

Comments

[princessofgeeks]

where is this dustup happening? have I missed it?

[tenaya]

You might want to miss it.... *g*

alyburns has documented it here:
http://alyburns.livejournal.com/619253.html

I browsed through the links and must admit to inappropriate laughter at times. And my manipulative personality radar pinged a few times so reading between the lines is useful.

[princessofgeeks]

wow; i missed this entirely. it sounds like it's a part of the sg1 fandom that's kind of next door to me? or are these folks writing TS? I recognize some of the names but not all.

thanks for the heads up, and yeah, I AM glad I missed it.

*boggles*

[tenaya]

It's SG1.

The writer in question, Annmarie, writes the type of story I just can't read. I can't buy such a childish Daniel or a Daddy Jack. I'm wary of people that attempt to manipulate others online by pulling stories, flouncing off or have illness that seem to get used to manipulate others.

Riverfox likes, Steve Bacic, the actor that portrays Camulus and Major Coburn.

The two sisters, annieb1955 and alynt I've seen out and about in different fandoms and frankly, they've been good people. One of them beta'ed a story of mine and gave good advice. It kinda looks like they've moved on to SGA.

[princessofgeeks]

thanks for the "character list".

[sid]

My very important opinion on the subject of betas and *g*

I just wanted to say that it was made very clear in Highlander that Joe had lost both legs. It was shown in flashback how it happened in one ep; he told 'Mrs. Kotter' about it in another; Ahriman (sp?) offered him his legs back in another. I think maybe once they showed him carrying a case of beer behind the bar, with his cane hooked over his arm, but that's a long way from carrying a grown man down two flights of stairs!

I had one experience where a volunteer beta seemed to be rewriting my story into her own style. She wasn't pointing out errors, just rephrasing entire sentences for the hell of it! Otherwise my experiences have ranged from pleasant to wonderful, and I hope that the few people I've beta'd for can say the same.

[tenaya]

Ah, thanks for reminder about Highlander. It's been a while since I saw the show (and had it all memorized.*g*) Yeah, that was a powerful scene when Ahriman offered his legs back. That show was wonderful. :::happy sigh:::

Yeah, rewriting vs a good edit. I think it's a lot easier if the writer and beta have similar styles so that doesn't become an issue; they can concentrate on plot holes, typos and grammar, oh my!

[dragonfly]

I'm not familiar with the dust up (and would rather not be) but my own thinking on honesty vs being nice is case by case. I would rather not beta for someone who is extremely uncertain and easily hurt, but I have stumbled into that situation a time or two. I usually choose not hurtful and as a consequence, I'm probably not a lot of help to them. But generally I beta for people I know and trust and I tell them honestly what I think as a reader. Since I am a writer, too, I'll tell them what I think as a writer, but I try to be cautious with that because it could be stylistic differences and sometimes I have turned out to be full of shit, unbeknownst to me at the time. *g*

I have had the oil and water thing. I ran into a situation once where the author had her generally sympathetic character commit what I considered a serious crime and I waited half the story for there to be some moral fallout from the character's action, only to learn when I asked that she didn't plan any fallout because she didn't think the character had done anything wrong. Ouch. We're still cautious friends but she never asked me to beta again and I sure as heck never volunteered.

I learned early on (and the hard way) not to raise my hand when a total stranger asked for a beta. OMG, melodramatic Mary Sue much? You can't beta a Mary Sue. You just can't. There is no good ending to that situation, for either person.

I could ramble on about experiences with my own betas, but they've been overall good and I've taken up enough space here on your post. *g*

[tenaya]

sympathetic character commit what I considered a serious crime and I waited half the story for there to be some moral fallout

Wow. I know as a reader I would have been WTF?! But what can you do if she doesn't see how bad that is? Ouch is right.

Yes, offering to beta and to be faced with a Mary Sue, that's a situation you can only back out of, quickly. *g*

After I said I'd prefer honesty vs being nice, I realized I tend to not have the conviction to be honest when the situation is difficult and it might hurt someone. But when I see other people being honest, or their are being honest to me, I prefer that. Yet again I'm on the fence. *g*

[moonchilde]

I have learned the hard way not to offer to beta for someone unless I know them well, preferably in-person well - it usually leads to a lot of wasted time and frustration on my part, and someone publicly thanking me for betaing for them, and people thinking all the spelling, grammar and sentence structure errors were mine! As far as being beta'd, I almost think my preference would be for someone who isn't into the fandom, and who would just be going over a story for spelling, grammar and sentence structure, or whether I left gaping flow-of-story holes or failed to explain something, etc. One of my peeves is people who want to rewrite the story to fit the way they see the characters and to fit what they want to happen. That's not being a beta, IMO. OTOH, giving an alternate phrase or way of saying something, with a comment 'that reads a little awkward, you could say something like X or Y instead' is also part of what I want a beta to tell me - but it's different than "so-and-so would never say that!" I think if you know someone really well you might be able to hash that out, but it pretty much comes down to the way you see the characters vs. the way they see them, and that differs a lot within the same fandom.

[tenaya]

Yeah, I can see where a totally disinterested party would not be rewriting the stories or the characters.

It's a sticky thing and since everything is done as volunteer work, there's the tendency not to value the beta's time.

[amalthia]

I suck as a beta but it took me a few times trying to realize that I can't figure out what's wrong with a story if it's not working for me and if it's working for me I have no clue how to help the author make it even better. And yes, it takes time to find a beta you can click with.

[tenaya]

I'm a very limited beta: plot holes, characterization and things that sound awkward. I don't have the abilities to do more than that. Beta-ing is hard work and takes talent. I do appreciate those fans.

[amalthia]

I'm kind of the same with my own beta skills. I think having tried it I can truly appreciate how much work it takes to beta read another person's story. It's also why I appreciate it when someone is willing to beta my stories. :) I do find it's a good idea to know what you'd like your beta to look for before you start so both people are on the same page.