We love our fannish bad guys...don't we?

[tenaya]

I was passing along a Torchwood spoiler about Owen a month ago to some friends who don't hang out on LJ. I was rather gleeful about it and they were not amused as they like Owen. They find him sexy and love that air of angst about him. I was all, "huh? Have you seen the first season?" They mentioned the many bad guys we love and asked why I had a double standard for Owen. Which got me to thinking about Avon, Methos, Kronos, Spike and Owen.


The first bad guy I really like was Kerr Avon in Blake's Seven. He was pretty and had the heavy emotional armor to protect a vulnerable center. He did a lot of stinkerish things, but it was within his characterization and I expected him to do those things, in fact I was delighted. And even when he turned on Vila, his friend, and was gonna throw him out the airlock, both Vila and I knew he would make that choice because it was *always* Avon first. It made me sad, but I still liked this beautifully flawed character.

The next bad guy was Methos. Of course, we didn't know he was a bad guy for about 12 episodes or so. During that time we came to know him as a good man with a strong streak of self-interest. He was funny, protective of his friends and very sweetly fell in love with an ordinary woman. He risked his life to save her's, to save Duncan's when he was under the effects of the dark quickening. And then we discovered he was Death of the Four Horsemen, and he killed thousands and he *liked* it. It was also revealed he had kidnapped another character we liked thousands of years ago, raped her, killed her and kept her as a slave. Astounding developments but when the episode ended, I still liked him, even though he killed a friend during it. I felt he was a different man now. I was going to say he regretted his previous behaviors but I'm not sure he did. They happened. It was a totally different time. It made him incredibly complex.

That brings up Kronos, another of the Four Horsemen. He was incredibly twisted, casually cruel and reveled in his meglomania. And he was incredibly sexy, especially when he was toying with Methos. He was introduced with these parameters and was faithful to them to the bitter end. Kronos was a fun fling--scary guy-- but fun. *g*

Next is Spike. He's a vampire, and was introduced as villain to the heroine, Buffy. Killing people is what he did to survive, and he also enjoyed it. But he also had his intriguing side; he liked humans, called them Happy Meals. He was a sucker in love; both Drusilla and Buffy used and abused him. His past showed him to be a sweet but terrible poet. Spike was a lot of fun. My question about Spike is did he ever betray anyone that he'd become loyal to? I only watched Buffy and Angel first run and it's been years since I saw it. I don't recall him doing anything that shocked me, and made me like him less but it's quite possible I just don't remember it.

I've got three problems with Owen. One, I don't find him attractive. My friend Bunny says that's enough, that as long as a guy is cute you can forgive him anything. *g* My second beef is that in the first two episodes established him as at least a sexual predator and technically a rapist. Using a scent to get people to sleep with him is non-consensual sex. That woman in the bar turned him down completely. It struck me at the time that he was going to especially enjoy having sex with her knowing that she didn't want it. Her husband was very jealous and Owen used his date rape drug on him, too. What are the repercussions to that couple when they deal with the fallout of Owen's special night out? Does Owen care? No. The second ep had a poor girl taken over by an alien that turns her into a nympho who kills her partners when they climax to absorb that energy. Just as they discover the killing part, they realize Owen is missing and with a knowing glance at each other, they race to where the girl is imprisoned. Sure enough, Owen is there, naked, in the cell, but the girl is gone. So, doing the math, Owen knew they had a girl who was not herself but was a functioning nympho *in a cell* and he rushes down there, gets naked and gets into the cell to again have more non-consensual sex. *WHY* is this guy one of the show's heroes?

The third thing I don't care for about Owen is he is supposed to be a part of a team, but he clearly isn't a team player. And then he kills Jack at one point because...what was the reason again? He disagreed with Jack? Something stupid for sure.

Now they've tried to rehab Owen this season but I'm not buying it. I don't like him. Apparently for a 'hero' to be an unrepentant sexual predator is the line in the sand that I won't cross.

Yet, yet...in all honesty I have to bring up my enjoyment of non-con sex in fanfic. It's my kink. What the hell does that say about me? Am I a hypocrite? Methos/Kronos. LaCroix/Methos. AUDark!Jack/Daniel.
Do I allow this because it's just fanfic? Would I feel the same way about the characters if the shows had filmed something similar? Why was it so thrilling in Star Trek when AU Spock grabbed McCoy and forced his way into McCoy's mind?

Is it really what Bunny said? That if one perceives that the guy is cute you can forgive a lot?


What are your feelings? Defending Owen or bringing up another character is encouraged because I am very interested in exploring this subject.

Comments

[moonchildetoo.livejournal.com]

Well....I can tell you that I do find Owen sexy. During the first season, I found him sexier than Jack, and definitely sexier (still) than Ianto. Is he good-looking? Attractive in a conventional way? No. But sexy to me - yes.

I also appreciate 'damaged' characters - and I do believe they can have a change of heart. Emotionally screwed up people do a lot of nasty things, in fandom and in RL, and they do sometimes seriously try to atone, or work it out internally that they did something awful, and are sorry for it. Even when they're sorry, they may not be able to atone for it in all cases - they may just be too screwed up. But "just a terminal nasty badass" and "an average guy who's just really screwed up" are two different things to me, and something in Owen (the character and the actor) appeal to me. That's just a personal attraction thing.

As far as Owen's past actions - we've been shown them. We haven't been shown a lot of negative past actions of Jack's, but I'm sure they're there. Jack is presented as the hero whom we always support. But what if Jack had raped someone? Would that completely change your mind about him? I'm just sayin'... ;-) Owen's been presented as a jerk from the beginning, all his faults have been laid on the table - not so with all the other characters. And one thing I appreciate about Owen is that he is aware he's done a lot of wrong things, and now, when it's pretty much "too late", and he sees that, he really is remorseful. And still not perfect ;-)

But I think a lot of liking or not liking a character still has to do with how the actor affects you. Burn Gorman's physical appearance seems to turn a lot of women off. He wouldn't be my choice for "Mr. Handsome", but I've always been intrigued by 'interesting.'

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

I thought you might have something to say about Owen. *g*

Actually, I've seen Burn Gorman on those little behind the scenes bits they show and he seems more attractive there. There's a sparkle to his eyes that make him look more impish. Owen and Rodney McKay both do this thing where they stretch out their mouths and turn the edges down, thinning their lips even more. It's a bad look for them both.

I really like Jack in Dr. Who but even there, he started out as a con man. He did regret that people where hurt by his actions and worked to repair the damage, even though it was gonna cost him his life. In Torchwood, he's just as screwed up as the others. All of them are a mess. Unfortunately, all of them are so exaggerated that they don't seem very 'real' to me and I'm not that vested in any of them.

Jack is quite long-lived; it is possible he has done something terrible at some point in his life. He'd kind of fall into the Methos model I think. I like him, I know that he's a good man now and if he regretted his past, then yeah, I'd probably be okay with it.

It seems like I have liked characters and then disliked them for things they have done. I'll have to try and remember who now as none come to mind.

You found Owen sexy. When he did those things that turned me off, did you interpret them at the time as non-con or, as it was more presented as, he was a partying type of guy? Did you immediately find him sexy or was there a moment you remember where he really grabbed your attention?

I think Owen as gone through the most growth of any of the characters on Torchwood. Going back in time
and seeing that girl murdered affected him profoundly. Falling in love and having her leave him because he wasn't enough to keep her there affected him deeply. What if he'd treated Tosh better? Would that have demonstrated to me that he'd learn empathy and therefore grown as a person? Perhaps.

[moonchildetoo.livejournal.com]

Hehe...yes, Owen girl here ;-)

I've noticed this season that as Owen has 'loosened up' and let other people into his life, as he's become a more complete human being, his facial expressions and his body language have changed. The more he smiles, and the more vulnerable he is, the more attractive he becomes.

Re: his mouth - well, the first thing I saw him do was Guppy in Bleak House, and he was a totally wretched, creepy soul in that. His mouth was a straight line all the way through. I think that to the extent one gets typecast in the UK (which is a lot less than in the US), he's probably reconciled himself to the idea that he's going to be playing unpleasant characters a lot, and he knows what he needs to do to look unpleasant. Poor guy!

I know what you mean about all the Torchwood characters seeming larger than life, and it being hard to take them seriously. It's a much more realistic show than Dr. Who, but there is still a WTF? element to it, aside from the aliens ;-)

I confess, I didn't really think of Owen's actions early on as non-con, but rather sex-starved stupid male jerk, i.e. same old, same old *g*. And I never got the feeling that he really wanted to hurt anyone. I sensed emotional neediness even in the earliest eps.

I did find him interesting, i.e. sexy, from the first ep, and I was very aware that I was meant to find him disgusting and that everyone else I talked to couldn't stand him. And I was like, what can I tell ya? Heh. I guess I'd have to describe it as an energy Gorman puts into the character..a strange sort of pain-laced electricity that made me sit up and take notice of Owen. Kind of frenetically, desperately unhappy, and an emotional train wreck waiting to happen. I sensed pain in him immediately. Here's a guy who behaves the way he does because he hurts, was my first thought.
And then yes, definitely, after the ep where he saw the girl's murder, I was hooked even more, and looked forward to the eps I knew were coming where we learned more about him.

I have to say that Tosh is the one character on the show that makes me go "ewww!". Not that I thought it was fine for him to behave so cruelly towards her, but it also hasn't affected me much *g*. I do think that he and Tosh are going to have a "more normal" (ha!) relationship from now on - but I'm wondering what the writers are going to do with Owen's...situation...

I was very affected by the ep where Owen gave so much, sacrificed himself and ended up you-know-what (are we still not saying?). I felt it was a 50/50 motivation - half that he was actually being selfless, and half that he was so terminally, deeply depressed about his life that he just didn't care, and I found that terribly sad. Come to mama, sweetie! [Mwahahahaha!]

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

Owen came off very nicely in last night's episode. And Tosh's desperation was scaled down to a murmur which worked really well.

In earlier eps, I did pick up that he was aware he was hurting people and perhaps got a perverse pleasure in it. You guys saw hurt, I saw a viciousness. When that woman pilot dumped him, I thought, "now you know what it felt like when you did that to how many others."

So, how do you feel about him being dead? My other friend seemed to hold me responsible for that since I didn't like him. No vomit or farting jokes allowed. *g*

Come to mama. :::snerk:::

[moonchildetoo.livejournal.com]

Well...to backtrack a little....

I did feel that he was aware at times that he was hurting people (I think you meant emotionally, and when I answered you I was thinking more physically than emotionally, but both), but not "how much", necessarily. I was picking up that he was so used to people, and life in general, hurting him in so many ways that he wasn't thinking of anyone being hurt by his actions to any greater, or as great, a degree than he was continually hurt by others' actions in his life. I did rarely glimpse that 'perverse pleasure' as you saw it, but I felt it was just 'hurting back' against humanity, rather than meanness for meanness sake' - if you follow that!

As for his current state - well, I've been kind of assuming that the writers will do something at some point such that he will no longer be the walking dead. He's a popular character, so I would hope/think they wouldn't get rid of him altogether. I've been thinking that he'll be brought back to life somehow.

[nausica2.livejournal.com]

Yet another Owen fan. I also liked him last season, even when everybody didn't. I think that in Burn Gorman's portrayal there was a desperation and a deep hurt that appealed to me. The good thing about Torchwood is that the characters aren't static, and even in Season 1 (I have problems with season 1) they evolved and changed. We got to see nasty and selfish sides of the others, and as Owen was already there, we got to see other shades of him.

As for season 2, this team thing they've been building has meant humanising Owen. No objection, I have loved every minute, and we've seen why Owen is like this and how being with the others has affected him.

As for the other guys you mention, Spike does have a huge following. I like the character, and he did give a lot of brilliance in the last seasons of Buffy. I think it's also the evolution, but without becoming an average good guy. Add to that that they called him "William the Bloody" because his poetry was "bloody awful", and we become sympathetic.

It's also interesting to compare him with Angel, with whom he shared some traits. Angel also did horrible things, but he got his soul and searched redemption. Let's not forget that he didn't willingly get the soul. OTOH Spike did look for the soul.

In any case, I'll always be a fan of Spike's lines. *g*

There are more examples of fascination with bad guys, take for example the Hannibal Lecter films. That guy is a serial killer, and he does have fanbase. Personally I don't find him appealing, but it's true that these "bad" characters do have more depth than the regular good ones. For me, the key is redemption. You give me someone who seeks redemption, and here I am. :)

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

I totally missed that vib that you and Moonchildetoo picked up on. Hmmm...I was probably already squicked by those other things to notice.

How do you feel about him being dead? It's an odd kind of death because not too much has changed but the fact that he doesn't heal should mean he has a pretty short shelf life.

I just saw the ep about Gwen's wedding. It was a pretty good episode and all the characters came off really well. Tosh wasn't desperate, Owen was part of the team and sympathetic, Ianto was funny and competent, Jack was a good leader and even Gwen seemed more realistic, more sympathetic. Rhys was wonderful as always. *g* Good episode.

I loved Spike's yearning to have a soul. He was sarcastic with a mean sense of humor, but that was okay. The worst thing I can recall about Spike was him killing that Slayer in the subway but that was part of being a vampire. Did he ever betray Buffy or the rest of the gang?

Redemption is a lovely theme to explore. Did you ever see the show Highlander?

[nausica2.livejournal.com]

I had seen Bleak House too before, so we were perhaps more atoned to Burn Gorman. ;)

I have a bad feeling with Owen, but so far his arch has been very interesting, dead included. I don't know any spoilers, but from what I've heard the show hasn't been renewed yet... Anyway, I guess that I can take a lot with Torchwood, things that I wouldn't like to see in other shows, but this one is adult and doesn't take punches, so in all fairness I don't think Owen will have a nice ending. It'll be sad, but also the coherent thing to do. Until then, I'm enjoying the ride very much.

The worst thing I can recall about Spike was him killing that Slayer in the subway but that was part of being a vampire. Did he ever betray Buffy or the rest of the gang?

Not that I remember. There was this thing when he trafficked with those eggs (the episode where Riley comes back), but I'd say the other characters did things as nasty as that. And it was Giles who wanted to kill Spike in the last season, after all. He never lost the wit and the sarcasm, but he did help Buffy a lot, and there were moments when he was the only one who could do anything for her.

Now that I think of it, Buffy became very dark in the last seasons. I like it. :)

Redemption is a lovely theme to explore. Did you ever see the show Highlander?

Yeah, many years ago, pre internet, when it was aired late at night and I used to tape it to watch the next day. I think I've seen most of the episodes, along with the films, including the last one. Never got into the fandom, though. Back then I had no idea fandoms existed.

And yep, Methos was a hell of an interesting character, he deserved his own show! I've heard he's very popular in fanfic, obviously.

Men With No Lips...

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