We love our fannish bad guys...don't we?
Mar. 22nd, 2008 12:59 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tenayaI was passing along a Torchwood spoiler about Owen a month ago to some friends who don't hang out on LJ. I was rather gleeful about it and they were not amused as they like Owen. They find him sexy and love that air of angst about him. I was all, "huh? Have you seen the first season?" They mentioned the many bad guys we love and asked why I had a double standard for Owen. Which got me to thinking about Avon, Methos, Kronos, Spike and Owen.
The first bad guy I really like was Kerr Avon in Blake's Seven. He was pretty and had the heavy emotional armor to protect a vulnerable center. He did a lot of stinkerish things, but it was within his characterization and I expected him to do those things, in fact I was delighted. And even when he turned on Vila, his friend, and was gonna throw him out the airlock, both Vila and I knew he would make that choice because it was *always* Avon first. It made me sad, but I still liked this beautifully flawed character.
The next bad guy was Methos. Of course, we didn't know he was a bad guy for about 12 episodes or so. During that time we came to know him as a good man with a strong streak of self-interest. He was funny, protective of his friends and very sweetly fell in love with an ordinary woman. He risked his life to save her's, to save Duncan's when he was under the effects of the dark quickening. And then we discovered he was Death of the Four Horsemen, and he killed thousands and he *liked* it. It was also revealed he had kidnapped another character we liked thousands of years ago, raped her, killed her and kept her as a slave. Astounding developments but when the episode ended, I still liked him, even though he killed a friend during it. I felt he was a different man now. I was going to say he regretted his previous behaviors but I'm not sure he did. They happened. It was a totally different time. It made him incredibly complex.
That brings up Kronos, another of the Four Horsemen. He was incredibly twisted, casually cruel and reveled in his meglomania. And he was incredibly sexy, especially when he was toying with Methos. He was introduced with these parameters and was faithful to them to the bitter end. Kronos was a fun fling--scary guy-- but fun. *g*
Next is Spike. He's a vampire, and was introduced as villain to the heroine, Buffy. Killing people is what he did to survive, and he also enjoyed it. But he also had his intriguing side; he liked humans, called them Happy Meals. He was a sucker in love; both Drusilla and Buffy used and abused him. His past showed him to be a sweet but terrible poet. Spike was a lot of fun. My question about Spike is did he ever betray anyone that he'd become loyal to? I only watched Buffy and Angel first run and it's been years since I saw it. I don't recall him doing anything that shocked me, and made me like him less but it's quite possible I just don't remember it.
I've got three problems with Owen. One, I don't find him attractive. My friend Bunny says that's enough, that as long as a guy is cute you can forgive him anything. *g* My second beef is that in the first two episodes established him as at least a sexual predator and technically a rapist. Using a scent to get people to sleep with him is non-consensual sex. That woman in the bar turned him down completely. It struck me at the time that he was going to especially enjoy having sex with her knowing that she didn't want it. Her husband was very jealous and Owen used his date rape drug on him, too. What are the repercussions to that couple when they deal with the fallout of Owen's special night out? Does Owen care? No. The second ep had a poor girl taken over by an alien that turns her into a nympho who kills her partners when they climax to absorb that energy. Just as they discover the killing part, they realize Owen is missing and with a knowing glance at each other, they race to where the girl is imprisoned. Sure enough, Owen is there, naked, in the cell, but the girl is gone. So, doing the math, Owen knew they had a girl who was not herself but was a functioning nympho *in a cell* and he rushes down there, gets naked and gets into the cell to again have more non-consensual sex. *WHY* is this guy one of the show's heroes?
The third thing I don't care for about Owen is he is supposed to be a part of a team, but he clearly isn't a team player. And then he kills Jack at one point because...what was the reason again? He disagreed with Jack? Something stupid for sure.
Now they've tried to rehab Owen this season but I'm not buying it. I don't like him. Apparently for a 'hero' to be an unrepentant sexual predator is the line in the sand that I won't cross.
Yet, yet...in all honesty I have to bring up my enjoyment of non-con sex in fanfic. It's my kink. What the hell does that say about me? Am I a hypocrite? Methos/Kronos. LaCroix/Methos. AUDark!Jack/Daniel.
Do I allow this because it's just fanfic? Would I feel the same way about the characters if the shows had filmed something similar? Why was it so thrilling in Star Trek when AU Spock grabbed McCoy and forced his way into McCoy's mind?
Is it really what Bunny said? That if one perceives that the guy is cute you can forgive a lot?
What are your feelings? Defending Owen or bringing up another character is encouraged because I am very interested in exploring this subject.
The first bad guy I really like was Kerr Avon in Blake's Seven. He was pretty and had the heavy emotional armor to protect a vulnerable center. He did a lot of stinkerish things, but it was within his characterization and I expected him to do those things, in fact I was delighted. And even when he turned on Vila, his friend, and was gonna throw him out the airlock, both Vila and I knew he would make that choice because it was *always* Avon first. It made me sad, but I still liked this beautifully flawed character.
The next bad guy was Methos. Of course, we didn't know he was a bad guy for about 12 episodes or so. During that time we came to know him as a good man with a strong streak of self-interest. He was funny, protective of his friends and very sweetly fell in love with an ordinary woman. He risked his life to save her's, to save Duncan's when he was under the effects of the dark quickening. And then we discovered he was Death of the Four Horsemen, and he killed thousands and he *liked* it. It was also revealed he had kidnapped another character we liked thousands of years ago, raped her, killed her and kept her as a slave. Astounding developments but when the episode ended, I still liked him, even though he killed a friend during it. I felt he was a different man now. I was going to say he regretted his previous behaviors but I'm not sure he did. They happened. It was a totally different time. It made him incredibly complex.
That brings up Kronos, another of the Four Horsemen. He was incredibly twisted, casually cruel and reveled in his meglomania. And he was incredibly sexy, especially when he was toying with Methos. He was introduced with these parameters and was faithful to them to the bitter end. Kronos was a fun fling--scary guy-- but fun. *g*
Next is Spike. He's a vampire, and was introduced as villain to the heroine, Buffy. Killing people is what he did to survive, and he also enjoyed it. But he also had his intriguing side; he liked humans, called them Happy Meals. He was a sucker in love; both Drusilla and Buffy used and abused him. His past showed him to be a sweet but terrible poet. Spike was a lot of fun. My question about Spike is did he ever betray anyone that he'd become loyal to? I only watched Buffy and Angel first run and it's been years since I saw it. I don't recall him doing anything that shocked me, and made me like him less but it's quite possible I just don't remember it.
I've got three problems with Owen. One, I don't find him attractive. My friend Bunny says that's enough, that as long as a guy is cute you can forgive him anything. *g* My second beef is that in the first two episodes established him as at least a sexual predator and technically a rapist. Using a scent to get people to sleep with him is non-consensual sex. That woman in the bar turned him down completely. It struck me at the time that he was going to especially enjoy having sex with her knowing that she didn't want it. Her husband was very jealous and Owen used his date rape drug on him, too. What are the repercussions to that couple when they deal with the fallout of Owen's special night out? Does Owen care? No. The second ep had a poor girl taken over by an alien that turns her into a nympho who kills her partners when they climax to absorb that energy. Just as they discover the killing part, they realize Owen is missing and with a knowing glance at each other, they race to where the girl is imprisoned. Sure enough, Owen is there, naked, in the cell, but the girl is gone. So, doing the math, Owen knew they had a girl who was not herself but was a functioning nympho *in a cell* and he rushes down there, gets naked and gets into the cell to again have more non-consensual sex. *WHY* is this guy one of the show's heroes?
The third thing I don't care for about Owen is he is supposed to be a part of a team, but he clearly isn't a team player. And then he kills Jack at one point because...what was the reason again? He disagreed with Jack? Something stupid for sure.
Now they've tried to rehab Owen this season but I'm not buying it. I don't like him. Apparently for a 'hero' to be an unrepentant sexual predator is the line in the sand that I won't cross.
Yet, yet...in all honesty I have to bring up my enjoyment of non-con sex in fanfic. It's my kink. What the hell does that say about me? Am I a hypocrite? Methos/Kronos. LaCroix/Methos. AUDark!Jack/Daniel.
Do I allow this because it's just fanfic? Would I feel the same way about the characters if the shows had filmed something similar? Why was it so thrilling in Star Trek when AU Spock grabbed McCoy and forced his way into McCoy's mind?
Is it really what Bunny said? That if one perceives that the guy is cute you can forgive a lot?
What are your feelings? Defending Owen or bringing up another character is encouraged because I am very interested in exploring this subject.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-23 07:34 pm (UTC)How do you feel about him being dead? It's an odd kind of death because not too much has changed but the fact that he doesn't heal should mean he has a pretty short shelf life.
I just saw the ep about Gwen's wedding. It was a pretty good episode and all the characters came off really well. Tosh wasn't desperate, Owen was part of the team and sympathetic, Ianto was funny and competent, Jack was a good leader and even Gwen seemed more realistic, more sympathetic. Rhys was wonderful as always. *g* Good episode.
I loved Spike's yearning to have a soul. He was sarcastic with a mean sense of humor, but that was okay. The worst thing I can recall about Spike was him killing that Slayer in the subway but that was part of being a vampire. Did he ever betray Buffy or the rest of the gang?
Redemption is a lovely theme to explore. Did you ever see the show Highlander?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-24 06:16 pm (UTC)I have a bad feeling with Owen, but so far his arch has been very interesting, dead included. I don't know any spoilers, but from what I've heard the show hasn't been renewed yet... Anyway, I guess that I can take a lot with Torchwood, things that I wouldn't like to see in other shows, but this one is adult and doesn't take punches, so in all fairness I don't think Owen will have a nice ending. It'll be sad, but also the coherent thing to do. Until then, I'm enjoying the ride very much.
The worst thing I can recall about Spike was him killing that Slayer in the subway but that was part of being a vampire. Did he ever betray Buffy or the rest of the gang?
Not that I remember. There was this thing when he trafficked with those eggs (the episode where Riley comes back), but I'd say the other characters did things as nasty as that. And it was Giles who wanted to kill Spike in the last season, after all. He never lost the wit and the sarcasm, but he did help Buffy a lot, and there were moments when he was the only one who could do anything for her.
Now that I think of it, Buffy became very dark in the last seasons. I like it. :)
Redemption is a lovely theme to explore. Did you ever see the show Highlander?
Yeah, many years ago, pre internet, when it was aired late at night and I used to tape it to watch the next day. I think I've seen most of the episodes, along with the films, including the last one. Never got into the fandom, though. Back then I had no idea fandoms existed.
And yep, Methos was a hell of an interesting character, he deserved his own show! I've heard he's very popular in fanfic, obviously.